Thursday, March 19, 2009

FW: Transcendence

Well, if he addresses in his book, then we should just look in
the book.

However, I do recall that he talked about the transcendence and
immanence of God in "Meeting Jesus." He thought that the
immanence of God was undervalued by many Christians. So it's
clear that he thinks the immanence of God is important. Most
likely, he also affirms the transcendence of God. However,
knowing Borg's tendency to redefine words so that he can appear
to affirm traditional creeds, I'm not sure what he is affirming
when he affirms the transcendence of God. Perhaps he only
means that God is greater than ourselves and greater than
anything we can see. He may not mean that we human beings have
access to any power outside of human power. It may be hard to
pin down Borg on this point.

By the way, I have to say that one of the things that irritates
me most about liberal theology is its seeming inability to call
a spade a spade.
There's a lot of playing with words. A spade is never a spade;
it's a metaphor for a club, which in turn is a metaphor for a
diamond. They will argue that we can't be sure that Jesus said
such-and-such, and later subtly shift to assuming that we *can*
be sure that Jesus *didn't* say such-and-such. Paul will state
something plainly, and they will appear to agree, but later you
find that they've reinterpreted Paul to say something totally
different. It's impossible to pin them down. A friend of mine
will happily sign statements of faith that directly contradict
her beliefs, and when I challenge her---"Look, it plainly says
this in that statement and you don't believe it, so why did you
sign it?"---she will counter that I'm being a naive literalist.
It seems clear to me that this attitude is a recipe for
hypocrisy and lack of backbone: If you play this game all the
time, then in times of persecution it will be all too easy to
sign any statement that those in power want you to sign and
justify it by some sophistical argument. But I can't seem to
get liberal thinkers to see it this way. They seem perfectly
happy making Jesus or Paul say whatever they want them to say.

Conservatives will also twist Scripture, but at least when I
point it out to them, they recognize it and don't try to squirm
out of it with some kind of clever redefinition of terms.

Borg isn't the worst offender because he does say some things plainly.
But he also pulls the redefinition trick quite often.

Tim

FW: Thank You

 
Dear Guy.
 
I address your second question in the chapter on God in Heart.
 
For now, I simply report two brief statements that I didn't know about when I wrote that chapter:
Irenaeus (ca. 200): God contains everything, and nothing contains God.
Julian of Norwich (1300s): We are not simply made by God, but made of God; and the deeper we move into our own being, the deeper we move into the desires of God.
 
In short, we are in God, just as God is also within us.
 
Best wishes,
Marcus
 
In a message dated 3/18/2009 6:02:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ghocker@rtspartners.com writes:
Marcus,  Thank you for the guidance.  I will follow up with the reading.  I appreciate your direction and encouragement, and willingness to respond.
 
I wasn't sure below if your answer addressed question 2 below but it probably did.  If so just say "yes".  The question is really whether or not there is an eternal source of strength and spiritual power outside of ourselves that we tap into when we connect with God, or is it just resident in us and unleashed through prayer, meditation, community and worship.  I realize this is mostly a belief question and similar to any question about an afterlife.
 
Thanks again for making yourself available and enjoy your travels.
 
Guy

Guy A. Hocker
RTS Partners, LLC
513.218.6529

Tuesday, March 17, 2009

FW: Marcus Borg


From: Xegete@aol.com [mailto:Xegete@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 5:12 PM
To: guy.rtspartners@gmail.com
Subject: Marcus Borg

Dear Guy (if I may - and Marcus is fine).
 
Thank you for your message.  I am pleased to know that my books have been helpful.  Writing is hard work for me, and it matters to know that it matters.  I also enjoyed reading your e-mail to a friend.  You write very well and think with great clarity.
 
I do travel a lot.  Right now, I'm in Kentucky, next week I'll be in South Carolina, and then Omaha.  Where do you live?  I can let you know if I will be nearby anytime soon.
 
With best wishes,
Marcus Borg

FW: Thank You

Marcus,
 
It was a pleasure to hear your speak.  I was unable to stay for anything further, but it was well worth the trip to hear your thoughts and see the reception of your ideas.
 
I wrote down two questions (below) that I would have liked to discuss if we had the time.  I'm sure you have written on them.  Maybe you could refer me to chapters or books that address these.
 
If I could share just a little more on me.  As you know from my past email, basically, I came to my journey through a revised understanding of the scripture.  At first I allowed the OT to be narrative and metaphor, and then I realized that the NT could be the same.  What bothered me the most is that we were assigning intent to the authors that the authors never intended (infallibility, inerrancy, authoritative), when even in the scriptures its says "all are fallen" (even the authors) and "work out your faith with fear and trembling" (if the Bible has the answers, not much to work out!).  The other piece that troubled me was that all rewards are waiting for us in the next life, when I really enjoy this one.
 
So about two years ago I allowed that Christ's messianic activity could be false.  The first transition was a belief in the possibility of "nothingness" - I guess a humanist view.  Then I come back to the presence of God (experientially).  But then it comes back to what tradition to rely on to experience God and life in its fullest.  I started with the one I was given and went to the parables.  As I mentioned, my question was "what was Christ offering that was so compelling, before he died" - I have challenged many with your question yesterday - what is the gospel?  I would always push back on the sin-redemption explanation since Christ was offering the Good News before he died.  He was offering something transformational from God before he died.
 
The parable book I used was The Parables of Jesus, by William Barclay.  - excellent, best one I could find.
 
After reading your two books (Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time and the Meaning of Jesus), I would now say the gospel is:
 
- there is no "we're in and you're out" - in fact we're all out (Sermon on the Mount), which means we're all in for the grace of God
- we can access the wisdom of God (logos, Sophia) in the here and now (it's now bound by place or time or status)
- this wisdom of God counters the wisdom of man (ex:  love enemies, everyone matters, be generous to the undeserving)
 
Before I get to my questions, I will say that this clarity for me on what "it" is brings so much peace and purpose to life.  Otherwise it is all dissonance.  So in fact now I can see God more clearly in others and the role of Christ more clearly today.  I can say my faith is truly alive an less in my head.
 
But at the same time, the challenges of life continue - it is very hard and almost impossible at times to love the unloving and forgive the one's who wronged you.  So this gets to my questions:
 
QUESTION 1:  I now have a consistent framework to understand God, Christ and the Scriptures.  The one that stumps me is *faith* - What is it that we have "faith" in?  What role does *faith* play in a Christian that shares your views?  Is it faith in the "logos" of God, or is it still faith in some entity?
 
QUESTION 2:  Life is still hard and challenging.  Is there in fact still some ability to tap into an eternal power or an almighty spirit to receive "His" power to achieve the things that I can't do alone?  (I realize this has clichés in it, but I think you know what I mean).  One option I assume is that I've had the power all along, and prayer and worship help me to find that source in me.  But the other is that there is a spiritual dimension to life and a presence that provides wisdom, courage, insight, that is supernatural and is not already resident.
 
Again, thanks for everything you do.  At 42, I feel like I'm starting my faith journey from the very beginning.
 
Guy

Guy A. Hocker
RTS Partners, LLC
513.218.6529

 

Wednesday, March 11, 2009

FW: Practical consequences

My first thoughts are that you are offering the greatest litmus
test. What fruits does it bring about it, both externally and inwardly.

For some reason, and I have to think about this more, but
Borg's view calls me to a greater level of compassion for all
around me. And a greater desire to actually get to know
Christ, the human. Christ, the Godman, is less interesting,
knind of like getting to know Zeus.

Another part of it is that I feel I can now live out my faith
with integrity. Is this spiritual or just being a good human -
I don't know but the fruits are there. So another fruit is
inner peace that I can believe in God and still be a Christian
even if I don't believe in the literalness of the NT story.
What's nice in Borg's view is that he posits that we aren't
just accepting half of the story, but the way the story was
actually intended (one possible interpretation).

Yes, this does mean there is nothing necessarily special in
Christianity and presently that doesn't bother me too much. My
sins are still forgiven, I'm less inclined to try to convert
someone to my way, but I have more compassion on them. I don't
know what's better or worse.

FW: not too flippant

I'm not trying to be too flippant and critical but it may come across that way.  That's why I loved your line:

"Aha! A requirement! How exclusive and cliquish of you, to demand that I accept this "wisdom of God" you speak of! So much for your "free" grace!"

I will comment on the rest of your email later.

For me what is becoming compelling is that Jesus was calling people to a full life of healing and forgiveness and access to God before he died (the pre-Easter Jesus).  He was inaugurating the Kingdom of God/Heaven, before he died.  I think that kingdom is best reflected in his parables.  "The kingdom of God is like..."

It does feel like inference or reading in to say he was really just pointing to his death that he knew from the beginning; he was on a mission; he was cryptic about it, but he gave us clues from passages and key words and actions.  So you could argue that Wright is reading in the messianic mission awareness and Borg is reading in that others read in the messianic role.  Please read Borg on the top of page 58 (I read it this morning).  It hits on the consequences of which belief you take.  It says basically (what I was trying to say) that if Christ's mission and actual life was the ultimate "lesson" or "teaching", then the other teachings become pale in comparison, and I can attest to that in my own life, and I think Wright's approach does this by connecting the Kingdom of God more to eschatological concepts than practical today issues.  If you leave his mission as just a great prophet, spirit-person and teacher, you pay more attention to the teachings themselves.  (And I'm not sure they are just good, tenseless theological concepts).

I need to read your thoughts in your last email again on Wright and why you think he doesn't ignore the actual teachings of Jesus to understand that better.  My "blink" after reading Wright was the mission was a mainly a role in the universal plot of good versus evil and a pivotal battle to announce the new era of the kingdom.  Not really about forgiveness, generosity, etc.  Since Christ was calling people to forgiveness and generosity prior to his death, I don't see what his death achieved at the practical level.  Here's a simple thought problem:  could someone have experienced the full forgiveness of God prior in the year 20 as they could 2 days after Christ's death?

Practical consequences

Guy,

Let me take a slightly different tack on our discussion, one
which we have touched on occasionally and which I think
underlies many issues, but which we haven't really brought to the fore.

One way to gauge a theological viewpoint is to see what kind of
fruit it bears. That is, what kind of life does the teaching
lead to? I gather that in addition to your intellectual
objections, your preference for "Borgian" or "liberal" theology
comes from a belief that it is more life-giving than
traditional theology, which leads to cliquishness and lifelessness.

In response to this I would certainly agree that there are
certainly many conservative churches that are guilty of this
charge. I will send you by snail mail the first chapter of the
book "No Condemnation," by Michael Eaton, which describes the
author's personal spiritual journey. An important part of that
journey was Eaton's growing realization that the Calvinism that
he had grown up with was, despite its verbal affirmations of
grace, producing lifelessness.

I will also say, however, that if you survey churches in the
U.S., you will find that mainline churches also suffer from
lifelessness. Having little to offer beyond general principles
of living that people can get from other sources, their reason
for existing as *churches* becomes unclear. They have a
tendency to turn into community centers or social action
committees or self-help groups. There is nothing wrong with
these things, but since there is nothing specifically
*religious* about these activities, there is a sense of
hollowness. The churches typically retain a certain religious
facade---they continue to recite the familiar creeds and sing
the familiar hymns---but many of the members don't believe the
words coming out of their mouths. The cleverer ones, like
Borg, have figured out how to redefine all the words so that
instead of meaning what most people (including the authors of
the words) mean by them, the words mean something metaphorical
that Borg is comfortable affirming. Mental gymnastics like
this are tiring though, and I for one can't perform them
without feeling like a hypocrite.

Despite their obvious differences, I would say that the
lifeless conservative churches and the lifeless liberal
churches that I have just described are, at bottom, suffering
from the same problem. Namely, both of them look to the law
(broadly construed) for a solution. I was struck by your
comment that in Galatians, Paul was writing to "liberal
theologians." In fact, Paul was writing to conservatives---"Judaizers"
who wanted to stick to the traditional Jewish system. So what
made you think that Paul was talking to liberals? Simply put,
both the Judaizers and your "liberal theologians" were/are
legalists. And Paul is saying no, the answer lies not in
principles or practices. The answer lies in a *person*, namely
the person of Jesus Christ. Paul preaches Christ crucified;
Paul does not preach principles that he illustrates with
stories about Jesus that may or may not be factual.

In his book, Eaton explains that when he turned to
Galatians---and he really studied the book thoroughly for many
years, reading all the commentaries he could find---it totally
transformed his life.

As I see it, the primary question in religion is whether there
is something radically beyond what we can see. When people
enter ecstatic trances, are they getting a glimpse of that
"something beyond"? Do miraculous events such as Jesus'
Resurrection give a glimpse of that "something beyond"? In
terms of practical consequences, it is clear that those who are
most passionately gripped with religious fire are those who
have had powerful personal experiences of that "something beyond" and
*know* that it exists. They might be deluded, of course. But
if they are right, and there *is* something beyond, then that
*must* be the primary concern of religion.

Now what if there isn't a "something beyond"? Personally, I
would agree with Calvin's tiger-friend Hobbes, whose answer is,
"Oh, what the heck---I'll take it anyway." Unlike some
Christian apologists, I don't think that nihilism is the only
option in this scenario. On the other hand, I do think that in
this scenario, it doesn't matter too much whether you choose to
be a "liberal Christian" or a "secular humanist" or whatever.
Principles are available to anyone, and there's no particular
need to cling to a specific religion. If anything, I would say
that in this scenario, it is better for your mental health to
distance yourself from the religion you grew up with.
Otherwise you will have a strong tendency to cling to certain
symbols and ideas for no better reason than that they are
comfortable and familiar, and you will be perpetually flirting
with hypocrisy. But again, if there is no "something beyond,"
then I don't see such choices as being all that big a deal.

Tim